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[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_01]: We were like in the deep, deep, deep humidity, like half swimming. You know when you're
[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: like, you're not quite swimming, but you're sort of half swimming. And then, yeah, today
[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: we got hit with this like Mendocino weather. I'm not mad at it.
[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I actually just moved out of the city, but I'm in New York state and just how excited
[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: we were that it was going to be in the 80s. And just how bizarre that is to talk about now,
[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you know? When I was a kid, that was hot. That was hot when I was a kid. Yeah.
[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just how things are going now. I guess this is just life and then we're going to
[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_02]: in 10, 10 to 15 years, we're going to long for the days of 95.
[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Burn me down, man. No, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, you know, give me, give me a little
[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: breeze. Give me a little like dry it out, you know? I'm going out of the, out of the
[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: house. So like if it gets to go off the wifi, you know what I'm saying? If it does
[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: anything funny, you know, funny business, I'm just going to, I'm going to walk a little
[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: bit. Do you find you a interview better when
[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you're walking? No, probably not, but it's just so nice
[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_02]: out. Are you like when you're writing, do
[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you walk? Oh, I walk. Yeah. I mean, I got, I got this
[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_01]: guy. So like we, we, we're out a lot. We're hit, we're hitting the streets, you know?
[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Who's who's that? That's Marty Morris. What's his story? He's a friend, you know?
[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: He's a good friend. Roommate. Yeah. My pal kind of a dead beat though.
[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Little bit, but doesn't do much. Now I ain't washing no dishes.
[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Have you been in Cincinnati your, your whole life?
[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: No. You know, I've been here. Is it, you're not using this footage, are you?
[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's going to be hella chaotic. Okay. Yeah. No, I've been here three
[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: quarters of my life. Three, three quarters and, and half a score of my
[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: life. Three non-consecutive quarters. Right. Right. I was, I moved when I
[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: was like 20 to the Bay and then I moved back when I was like 30. Now, now,
[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: now I'm, hey, I'm actually from the Bay area originally. Okay. Where,
[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: what part? I will, I will not let a hella go by uncommented.
[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: What part are you from? I'm from Fremont from the East Bay with the
[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: school in Santa Cruz. End of the line, baby. Yeah. Although, although
[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's technically still the end of the line, but they have
[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: expanded it. Now there's another end of the line. Okay. The
[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_02]: automobile parkway stop
[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: lifelong,
[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: lifelong A's fan, which is as you can appreciate kind of miserable at
[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: the moment.
[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I can't, I don't, you know, I'm not, I'm barely privy. I
[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: mean, you know, it's just enough for me to keep, keep a little bit of
[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: breast of the politics. Sports pass by me, although I do enjoy
[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: watching when I'm watching, you know,
[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: what brought you to SF and what brought you back?
[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, music, that sort of thing. Like, so we, you
[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: know, we had that
[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: anticon label out there. Well, we, we went out there to create
[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, so that's pretty much what brought me out. Be with, be
[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: around those guys and having a little community of
[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: weirdo music people. You know what I mean?
[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: What's the community situation like where you're at now? And I
[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_02]: guess like how important is that at this point?
[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that it's very important. You know, I have a
[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: bit of a community. I feel like I'm maybe not the best at
[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: like, I've, I've, I guess we're getting, we're getting
[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: into some therapy territory. But you know, I have, I have
[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: trouble maybe integrating as much as I used to in into
[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: community and stuff. Maybe I'm not as good as I used to
[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: be at, at being like, you know, at getting involved with
[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: things and people. But I think that's typical for people as
[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: you get older, you know, like most people by my age have
[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: like two kids, you know, and are married and then divorced
[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and then maybe married again, you know what I mean? So
[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that's kind of like takes the place of, of those kind of
[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: fraternistic communities that we involve ourselves in, in
[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_01]: our 20s.
[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: New York specifically, it's, it's, you know, it's hard
[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: financially and for a lot of other reasons, it difficult
[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: place to live. So people just don't settle down there.
[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be like, just like, right, the prices in the
[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: city are going to basically stunt population growth. Just,
[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and easy availability to contraceptives.
[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is kind of the opposite problem when you think about
[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: it.
[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. Anyway, yeah, no, I feel you
[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and I don't know if my, you know, if my inability to, to
[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: lock in is, is city related or if it's more just, you
[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: know, just haven't figured out how to interact.
[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You're talking just broadly like social, social awkwardness
[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and I guess, I mean, I yeah. And relationship wise, maybe
[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I've had a couple that didn't, you know, work out and
[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: things like that. But I'm just being self deprecating.
[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm okay. But, you know, I don't know why I'm not in a
[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: more, you know, settled, whatever you want to call it
[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_01]: situation. And I mean, look, neither of my siblings have
[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: kids like they, you know, they both have partners right
[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: now, but I've had partners too. But, you know, yeah, so
[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what it is. I think it's maybe generational
[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to some extent. And I'm not saying, there's certainly a
[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: lot of people in my generation that are locked up
[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: but are locked in but and locked up by supposed to. But
[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_02]: like I said, I recently left the city and like I bought a
[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: house. And that's something that I just never thought was
[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: going to happen. There's just, I think there are
[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_02]: certain things that our there are a lot of things
[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that our parents generation took for granted that just
[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: don't seem feasible in the same way now.
[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, no, absolutely. And I mean, and some of that is
[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01]: financial, I think. Just yeah, you know, they show you
[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: these charts on social media and stuff about how the sort
[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: of, you know, minimum income has stayed the same as as
[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: housing prices and all this stuff has gotten more
[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: expensive.
[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder too, if like there's something in your job that
[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe can make sustaining relationship difficult because
[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02]: like in you know, you've tore so much is probably a
[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: big part of it.
[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That's true. Although, you know, I also have spent, you
[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: know, like I really haven't toured that much in the
[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: last like five, six years. I used to a lot. So yeah, for
[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: sure. Like, um, you know, that used to be real hard.
[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And I had long stretches where I had no no no
[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: relationships. But um, you know, yeah, as as the years
[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: have gone on, I've kind of started to tour a little
[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: less just because it's harder. What are you doing, man?
[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That's to Marty. But yeah, that that that certainly
[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: makes it hard when I'm doing that. But I don't know.
[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, I don't know. I just maybe I I don't go out
[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: that much or something. You know,
[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel the same way. And in fact, like that's a that's
[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: a part of why I ended up just kind of getting out of
[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: the city was just like I and the pandemic really drove
[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: us home and just like, oh, I'm not leaving my apartment
[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the way I used to. What am I paying, you know, for
[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: the privilege of living here, basically?
[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And not not even, you know, even beyond financially,
[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: like, I think the pandemic sort of showed us that
[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: it's kind of nice to have a little bit of like,
[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: space, I don't know, and have a little a little
[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: like, but your own. Maybe I just got I got like,
[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: isolation indoctrinated by the by the pandemic, I think.
[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And I haven't really changed my ways that much a little
[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I go out sometimes but not you know,
[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also not in my 20s anymore. You know, I'm
[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: saying I'm not I don't drink either. So it's like,
[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: what do you go out every night and do? I don't
[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: know.
[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I quit drinking a few years ago, and I kind of had a
[00:09:38] similar
[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah,
[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: similar experience. It dawns on you and you don't
[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_02]: when you're in it, you don't really recognize like,
[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: just how much of socializing as an adult is
[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: around drinking.
[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I mean, almost all of it, I feel like right?
[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, not all of it, but much of it.
[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: When all the shutdowns and everything first started
[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: happening, I got concerned because I felt like I was a
[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: little, I embraced it a little too much. I was a
[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: little too comfortable that but that you know, that
[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that I was I have to sort of throw myself into
[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: social situations. And it's it's a little awkward
[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and uncomfortable. And all of a sudden, like that
[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: that sense of obligation was being taken away.
[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I yes, it that didn't feel too crazy
[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: to me. I guess. Yeah, I wasn't like always out
[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: anyway. So I and I had a partner at the time who
[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I lived with. And so, you know, when you have
[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that you sort of fall into these not always but
[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: we kind of fell into a you know, we don't go out
[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: much and kind of thing before the pandemic. So we
[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: just kind of kept doing that. But we kind of lived
[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: in terror. Like we didn't we didn't like go out
[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: at all. Like, you know, we were like scared to
[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: leave the house, you know. But I wear a mask to
[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: walk the dog around the block. You know what I
[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: mean? Like that kind of shit. Anyway, not to
[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: relive that.
[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: To a certain extent, we're going to be reliving
[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_02]: it probably for the rest of our lives. But I
[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: always you know, I talked to people about this
[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: quite a bit and I'm curious to get your take on
[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_02]: it. I, you know, I was living alone in my
[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: apartment for all of that. And I wonder, I
[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: wonder what's the better scenario because
[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: obviously there's like there's pluses and
[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: minuses of both of them. But being like
[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: being just completely alone and having to,
[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, communicate with people over Zoom or
[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: like basically being locked up with somebody
[00:11:37] else.
[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Neither grass is very green, to be honest.
[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean? I don't know what the
[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: other way was. But it was it was it was tough
[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to be with somebody but I also can yeah, I
[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: can imagine that being alone could be worse
[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: even. I mean, yeah, anytime that you don't
[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: have like broad communication with, you
[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: know, a plethora of people, shit gets
[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: weird. You know, I mean, that like the
[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: only examples of that we have are like this
[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: weird pandemic thing that we live through or
[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: people in prison, I guess, certain prisons,
[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: isolation or like someone like like when the
[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Tom Hanks got got more done in Desert
[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Island.
[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He seems to get stranded a lot in places. I
[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: thought you were gonna say the time that he
[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: got stuck in the airport.
[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, also that one also that one. But
[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: there are people around on that one.
[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: That's true. Yeah. Yeah. How? I mean, were
[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you were you writing a lot during that
[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: period?
[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I was writing a bit but not
[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_01]: like I would say like, without, you know,
[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: having like very varied experiences, you
[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: know, your mind can kind of get shut in a
[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: little bit. And from the like, just the
[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: fucking fear, you know, how that sits on
[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: you. It's not doesn't like stir the
[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: creative juices exactly. So I don't I
[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: don't think I was super prolific during
[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that period. I know some people like
[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: wrote their novel or whatever. But I was
[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: already you know, I already didn't have a
[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: day job, which is I'm very fortunate
[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: about. So it's not like, all of a
[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: sudden, I got to be home after usually
[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: being in some cubicle every day or
[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever.
[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I've heard you talk about this a little
[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_02]: bit of forcing is too strong of a word,
[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: but really figuring out how to write in
[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: those moments where, you know, maybe
[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: just don't feel like it that day or
[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: the inspiration isn't isn't necessarily
[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: coming but of kind of, you know,
[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: forcing yourself to sit down and do
[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: something.
[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's good to do that. I
[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: don't have you know, I don't have a
[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_01]: routine.
[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Really, I used to be more like
[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: would only do stuff when like the
[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: quote unquote inspiration hit or
[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: something, you know, like, I think now
[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I've gotten to the point where I, I
[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: mine, you know, little moments
[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: inspiration hits and I'll write a
[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: little something down or, or, you know,
[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe I'll write a little riff or
[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: something.
[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I can sit down any time and
[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of comb through things and put
[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: things together and edit things and
[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: move the, you know what I mean?
[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, if I wanted to, I could keep
[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: regular work hours, but I don't
[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: because I don't know, this is a
[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: weird job and things come up like
[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: you got to, you know, whatever
[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: this like we're doing a podcast or
[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I got to do, you know, work on a
[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: music video or, you know, like, so
[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: there's just all kinds of different
[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: things. It's a varied lifestyle.
[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So but I should what I should do
[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and what I was doing for a little
[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: while is locking myself in the
[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: studio for like three, four hours,
[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, in the morning before I
[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: do anything else without my phone,
[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and then
[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and then using the rest of the day,
[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, afternoon or one, say,
[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: to, you know, to do anything else
[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I need to do like emails or
[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever. You know what I mean?
[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's just to say that
[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that it's good to have a
[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_01]: practice like that, but I don't
[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: exactly have that ideal at the
[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: moment. Just a regular, you
[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: know, putting in hours, you
[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: know, I'm not doing that right
[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: now, but I try to stay abreast of
[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: things and and not let too many
[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: days fall through the cracks.
[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you said something
[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: along the lines of wanting to do
[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: take a more traditional approach
[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: to songwriting for this record.
[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: What does that mean?
[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think coming off the
[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: heels of the last one, which
[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: was A OK, Ohio, like the way
[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: that that one is structured, you
[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: know, there are a couple songs
[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: that are more like.
[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, pop song structure,
[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: reverse chorus and all that,
[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: but there's a lot of stuff
[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that's like, you know, 30
[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: seconds of the of the like
[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: hornet hornet extinguisher
[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: guy calling me about getting
[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: this hornet's nest off my
[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: house or whatever, you know.
[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, just weird shit
[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: that like I was which I like
[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: doing too, but like this this
[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: album specifically, I.
[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Was thinking more in terms of
[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: songs that can sit sit on their
[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_01]: own, you know, and be something
[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: on their own without needing to
[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: be, you know, abutted
[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: by other songs.
[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: To have context,
[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: you know what I mean? So, yeah,
[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: just just beginning middle end.
[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: That's all I mean.
[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We were kind of bumping up
[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: against this earlier, but.
[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I get the sense that.
[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Going through a breakup was a big.
[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if motivator
[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: is the right word, but at least
[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: like a starting place for this album.
[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, I mean, I think that
[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the album basically chronicles
[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: me dealing or, you know,
[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: this character who is informed
[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: by me dealing with.
[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: The first, you know, like
[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to figure out how to
[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: how to be alone and what I wanted
[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and what, you know, what's right
[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and what she should have,
[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, for the first couple
[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: of years after, you know, like
[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that's kind of yeah,
[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what it is.
[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's kind of
[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: chronicling the ups and downs
[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and the ins and outs
[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: of those couple of years.
[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think of change.
[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02]: What does that mean when you say
[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to figure out
[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: how to be alone?
[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You know,
[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, just try it,
[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: try to know how to be
[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: without this person that,
[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, maybe you thought.
[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know.
[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to tease away
[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: from someone else like when you
[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: intertwine with someone,
[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: it's hard to peel away and feel.
[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, OK, you know,
[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: especially if you,
[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, live with them
[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and maybe there's some
[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit of codependency
[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: going on and you go through
[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: you go through a pandemic
[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're you know what I mean?
[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's a lot.
[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And it sounds like,
[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, it's that struggle of.
[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Fine, you know,
[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: getting to a place
[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: where you're OK being alone,
[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: but then almost not
[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_02]: trying not to get too comfortable
[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: being alone.
[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know, you know,
[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I know other people like that,
[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and I feel like I definitely
[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: have some of that.
[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I know people that
[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: have trouble being in relationships
[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: because and I'm the same way like
[00:19:13] it's.
[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like a big
[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: learning curve to know how to
[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: interact with, especially that
[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: to go deep with one specific person.
[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I get certainly
[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I get like social anxiety.
[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Just being out at a,
[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, at an event or something
[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: or at a coffee shop
[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: where I know a bunch of people around,
[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you know what I mean?
[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Things like that.
[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's nothing,
[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I think compared to,
[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, trying to share
[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: your like weird intimate home,
[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, like solitary shit
[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: with something like,
[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, to live with somebody and
[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and like have that kind of intimacy
[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: takes another level of.
[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Like unclenching
[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: your your your solitariness,
[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you know what I mean?
[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if there's a parallel
[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to be drawn, but, you know, I always.
[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I always say to people,
[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the best way to test relationship
[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_02]: is to move in with somebody.
[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think like.
[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Similar that the best way to know,
[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, it.
[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: If you can be in a band
[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_02]: with somebody is to
[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: is to go on tour with them
[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and to hold yourself up
[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: in the back of a van,
[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: because, you know, all of the bad shit
[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: is going to come out real fast.
[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: No doubt, no doubt.
[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think I think that's, you know.
[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't know from from experience,
[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: but I think that's how you grow
[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: as a person, you know, is just to
[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: know, I'm just kidding.
[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I I would know a little bit, but
[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, I think that's how you grow
[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: is is by being sort of
[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: put up against that
[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: that kind of thing
[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and having to talk through it and,
[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: you know,
[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think some people
[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: are better than others at it
[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and other people, you know,
[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I I just have gone through something
[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: recently, somebody I was dating
[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is a weird
[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: like noncommunication thing.
[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And we had to sort of figure out
[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: how to, you know, neither of us
[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: wanted to like bring shit up,
[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you know what I mean?
[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we had to like
[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: figure out how to how to do that.
[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, then that's normal human stuff.
[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's
[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it's good to be brave
[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and try to
[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: try to open up and
[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and be close to people, you know.
[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe there are ways in which
[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you're completely comfortable being
[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that open and transparent person
[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: when it comes to like the art
[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: that you're putting out in the world.
[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But actually just
[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: something that seems as simple
[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: as just sitting down
[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and having a conversation with somebody
[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe doesn't come as easily.
[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, because it's it's it's simple
[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and you just have to connect the dots.
[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But like when I'm doing
[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: the art thing, I'm alone.
[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So even though it ends up
[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: being shared with the world,
[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not thinking about that
[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: at the time, you know,
[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: at the time is I'm by myself
[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm and I'm kind of just like
[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_01]: letting the the shit dribble out.
[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: That said, I have a lot
[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: of really cringey music that like
[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that I go back to later
[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm like, what the fuck?
[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how did I put this out
[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: into the world?
[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But like it happens
[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: because you're alone in a room.
[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're just anything.
[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Anything goes.
[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so yeah, I agree.
[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of easier
[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: to do that for sure.
[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And then bring another person in
[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you got to not
[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: say all that stuff.
[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm saying like
[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you have to like.
[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, figure out
[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: how to be authentic and yourself,
[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: but also not be,
[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, a jerk and
[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: consider what they would want to.
[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, be privy to about you.
[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't know a lot of a lot
[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: of ins and outs, a lot of hoops.
[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if it like can be difficult
[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to reconcile with a partner
[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_02]: where they can't, you know,
[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_02]: they can't quite understand why
[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you can be so naked
[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and transparent in front of so many people.
[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But just a one on one
[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_02]: is so much more difficult.
[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I mean,
[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: transparent front of people on the stage.
[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not really with those people, too.
[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like.
[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And also, if you're singing,
[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, you're singing songs
[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you wrote by yourself.
[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I mean.
[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but there's there's
[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: there's nothing that,
[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, is equal to
[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: just the intimacy
[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that happens between two people
[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: when they're like,
[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, really in it with each other,
[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: whether it's a romantic thing
[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: or it's or it's family or whatever,
[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, like when when you sort of,
[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: especially living with somebody like,
[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, even if it's your parents
[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and your siblings or whatever,
[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, you see everything and like
[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to be OK
[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: with them seeing everything.
[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So like it's a.
[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You know,
[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and when you get away from that,
[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to reiterate what we just talked about earlier,
[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: when you get away from that for a long time,
[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: it's hard to go back to it.
[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Would you describe making music
[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: as a like an overwhelmingly
[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: solitary experience?
[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I would say for me,
[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: the generative moments are.
[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But but then there's,
[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I mean,
[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: you can look at the credits
[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's like 40 people
[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that performed on that album
[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and, you know, whatever.
[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And so.
[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's it's it's
[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it is and it isn't,
[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, but like I feel like,
[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, the generative moments
[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: tend tend to be for sure.
[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know,
[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what informs the rest in a way.
[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: When you say generative,
[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you mean like the song writing specifically?
[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm more talking about songwriting, I guess.
[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, demoing and,
[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, it's like how something is going to go.
[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, yeah, once you're in with other people
[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and still it's like it'll be awkward for me to
[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll feel weird about singing
[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: my stuff in front of,
[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, the people that are playing on the record too,
[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, like
[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: so I may.
[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I may not really like,
[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, one example
[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: that comes to mind right now is like
[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: along an old one,
[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: but like on like the song Alopecia,
[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, on the album, Alopecia
[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: on the song Good Friday,
[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, no one had heard,
[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I didn't let anybody hear
[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_01]: my all my verses before it,
[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, so I just like
[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the first time anybody heard
[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: some of that stuff was when I was in their booth
[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and they were in the in the control room,
[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, just because it's I didn't know
[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: how to do it in front of them.
[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you just do it.
[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there were, you know, so
[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, it's
[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and maybe that tells me that like
[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the stuff that I shouldn't be releasing
[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to the world,
[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, that I should be able to sing something
[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: to people that I know before
[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I let people that I don't know hear something.
[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I don't know.
[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, you talked a little bit about again,
[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe this is too strong of a word,
[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but you talked a little bit about regret
[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_02]: from the standpoint of something being like,
[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: like cringy.
[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But is there ever
[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: regret around maybe too open
[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_02]: about something that should be kept private?
[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's really what I mean by cringy.
[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, lots of that.
[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, just like,
[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, just just little lines
[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's like, man, like
[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: or even even like
[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: ways of being like
[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: like being too
[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: too animated in videos or being too, you know,
[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I get I get cringed from a lot of my old stuff.
[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Anything that's like trying to art,
[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: basically, if it's if it doesn't like,
[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, if your whole being doesn't roll off the tongue,
[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: then it's like, don't do it, you know, I think
[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the rule of thumb.
[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's hard, you know, when you're self editing,
[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, like it's often hard to know.
[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's why I like big pop stars
[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: have teams of people that are like,
[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: no, don't do that.
[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Because they're image conscious and image concerned
[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and like, you know, no one's going to tell me,
[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, cut your hair, do you know, whatever, like
[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: no one really
[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have that kind of
[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: those kind of people around me, really, you know.
[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: This is another line that's really difficult to walk is
[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: obviously you want to try hard, you know,
[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and that you want to put your best thing out into the world,
[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: but you don't want it to look like you're trying too hard.
[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Totally. And yeah, I mean, look, when I
[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: write, I mean, I put so much effort
[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: into into certain aspects of songmaking.
[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, you wanted to feel effortless and
[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I don't know when you're I feel like when you're
[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: in public, for instance, me right now
[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_01]: talking to you, like if I was too stilted or too like.
[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Then it wouldn't come off well.
[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just trying to be natural and just talk.
[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm also pretty stoned.
[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of like I don't have an option at the moment.
[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I forgot about this and I was in the studio. But um,
[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_01]: but yeah, I think I just think that
[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, anything you do that you put out in public,
[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: you want it to be like, I don't know.
[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Then then I see the other side of things, too, where it's like, well,
[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we're only alive once and like
[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: if if like.
[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: That feeling or that or that itch or that or that,
[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, to say something in a certain way comes to you,
[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: then it's like, why not?
[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. I see both sides like Chanel.
[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, of it and, you know, because a lot of a lot of what
[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe what may make me cringe is me being,
[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, raised up in the in the way in the place that I was.
[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just mean in our culture, you know, and like the things that we see
[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: as being, you know,
[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: taboo or uncomfortable or embarrassing, you know, things like that.
[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So at times in my life, I know I've kind of pushed at that a little bit
[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: for the sake of doing it for for myself as a little bit of a like
[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I just said I've just that I've pressed at pressed at the.
[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Press into the discomfort a bit of,
[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, saying things or in a way that
[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: is a little, I don't know, not taboo.
[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I'm saying taboo things, but just like, you know,
[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: a little out of what of what out of your comfort zone.
[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. So and I don't know.
[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I like the idea of that.
[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But then when I go back in time and and see stuff from the past,
[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: it makes me uncomfortable.
[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's always a difficult relationship to of, you know,
[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody coming up to you and telling you how much they love this thing
[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_02]: that you did and all you can think about is, you know,
[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you can only see the bad in this thing that you put out into the world.
[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, well, look, I also see some good like they're like
[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I can I can check out younger, some younger stuff that I've done
[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and and also feel like, oh, like, that's cool.
[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, almost see yourself as a different person.
[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That's cool. He thought of that or whatever, you know.
[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But but like, yeah, largely you hear the shortcomings
[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: or the or the weirdness for sure.
[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you feel like being stone makes you more honest?
[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Do I seem extra honest?
[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm just I'm curious, like how, you know, you you you alluded to it earlier.
[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm curious, like how that that interacts,
[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02]: how that like impacts the way you interact with others.
[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that it tends to make me self-conscious sometimes or
[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: but, you know, sometimes I feel like this goes right with what we're talking about right now.
[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, fuck, Marty, I don't have a bag.
[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to have to come. I know where there's a bag.
[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I mean, I think that sometimes I will
[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: go on to get a bag, go on.
[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So then a restaurant.
[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes in life you got to get a bag for this shit.
[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes they were looking at they were giving me the eye.
[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Some sometimes
[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm when I get stoned, I will sort of see things in another light
[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and it will help me edit and realize what what is natural and honest
[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and what feels like a stretch, you know what I mean?
[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And like I'm like I'm pressing too hard.
[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I think it can have in fact, you know, I think it's good
[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: just in terms of making music, it's good to work
[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: in various.
[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I don't mean you got to get high to make music for sure you don't,
[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's good to have various mind states when working.
[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think like having a,
[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, having the like just the dreamy
[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: like anything goes, no editing.
[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Like my state is very good for the very, you know, seeds of things.
[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you definitely want to have that sort of editor
[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: mind state and you want to have the sort of productive person mind state,
[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and those all, I think, are appropriate
[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: for different parts of the process.
[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think the simplest version of that for like for me as as a writer,
[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the simplest version of that is just just like standing up,
[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, leaving my house, you know, leaving the room for a little bit,
[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_02]: coming back and like reading something with a fresh pair of eyes.
[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is a way to almost like
[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to give yourself like a hard reboot.
[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what I'm talking about for sure.
[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that, you know, drugs can kind of aid in that sometimes,
[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: but also so kind of walk around the block for sure.
[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah.
[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think different times of the day, too, like,
[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, you're you perceive things differently
[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: when you first wake up than you do right before you go to bed.
[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so I think it's good to,
[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, keep going back to your work and being like, you know,
[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: because I'll often even just even if I'm not being self critical,
[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: if I'm in an early part of the process of demoing or whatever,
[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll still come back to it and I'll change one word or whatever, you know?
[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to get like too far into this sort of like
[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Joe Rogan drug talk, but I I'm just really sort of curious
[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_02]: like for my own edification as somebody who has dealt with like
[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_02]: just a lot of anxiety my my entire life.
[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: You you did ketamine therapy, is that right?
[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I did, actually.
[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. How did you know that?
[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned it or wrote about it somewhere.
[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_01]: OK. Well, I did do that.
[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I found it I think it was good for me, actually.
[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: How so? Well, I think it just
[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: it helped to make me a little more like
[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: a little more resilient
[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and not.
[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, not as easy to to get discouraged and dark.
[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't think it was like a permanent fix.
[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I did it like a bunch of times, you know?
[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it could be something that really just to sort of stay
[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: in the light, you would have to do it like once a week or once every two weeks
[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: or something like that.
[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's too expensive for me for that.
[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I think I think it's a good it's a good therapy.
[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of people talk about, of course, mushrooms.
[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've never really done those in that way so much.
[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But I like the idea.
[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. I'm not I'm not a, you know,
[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a drug guy.
[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I just smoke weed, really.
[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you talking about depression specifically?
[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Anxiety, you know, just just just like
[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: just like rotten mind or whatever.
[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Just thinking too much, you know, too too much in your head.
[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Where's that poop, Marzi?
[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I lost it, dude. I lost the damn poop, man.
[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: There are worse things.
[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. I know with these people here.
[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01]: All right. We got to do it this.
[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: All right. We're not.
[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Look, this is like a first for me.
[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And like I find other other dog shit over here all the time.
[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So I woke up this morning.
[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: There's just a giant pile of dog shit out in front of my house.
[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, let it be known on this podcast.
[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I walked around with the bag for a full seven minutes to try to find this thing.
[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I think maybe what you're getting at and again,
[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: this is something that I really, really connect to on a deep level
[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02]: is the thing about this applies to anxiety, this applies to depression,
[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_02]: this applies to probably a lot of other things that it's really
[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: is that you spiral and that it's sort of like it's it's
[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it's almost like self perpetuating, you know, that
[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: the the more you get into your own head,
[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: the worse the worse it gets.
[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe maybe this is a way for you to kind of like,
[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, almost like shake yourself out of it.
[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I think so. Yeah.
[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I think and I think that's what these different kinds of drugs do
[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: is they kind of, you know, or even SSRIs or something.
[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they kind of you know, I mean, we're being very metaphorical, of course.
[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But like, yeah, that they kind of,
[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, yeah, shift you out of those networks.
[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: They talk about the laying down fresh snow,
[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, on on like tracks that you've been in for a long time
[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and allowing you to sort of create new tracks, you know.
[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Is your work better when you are just in a better state of mind?
[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure.
[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I would think that I think that I'm more able to see clearly.
[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I think that and again, this harkens back to what we talked about
[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: earlier about feeling cringy, about about old old work and stuff like that.
[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I think.
[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: That not only is a less, you know,
[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: depressed, less anxious mind state
[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: desirable for those obvious reasons,
[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: but I think it's like clearer.
[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's clearer and you're more able to see like
[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: what what is the honest idea,
[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and what's the contrived idea?
[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what's what's the natural voice,
[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and what's something you're putting on?
[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So and even literally that, but metaphorically that and literally that
[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: voice, I mean.
[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I think I think I think that certainly having
[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: being able to think more clearly or not being depressed,
[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and anxious and, you know, and fearful and all that stuff,
[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, being able to think more clearly,
[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, you also think more clearly about your work,
[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you know what I mean? And what what what's honest and what's not for sure.
[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Classic air is a vacuum where you are not
[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00]: an old can of Coke flattened by a thousand cars.
[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: How strange to be strangers after what we was.
