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[00:00:01] Just got off work, just got off stage back in the old office slash dressing room.
[00:00:20] Yeah, coming out of performance mode and into human being mode.
[00:00:29] Does that generally take a little bit of time to transition back into the human being thing?
[00:00:32] For me it does.
[00:00:33] For me it does.
[00:00:36] I think the nature of this show is so much like it requires you to always be on and particularly
[00:00:44] in my job I'm juggling a lot of different roles at the same time.
[00:00:50] And so to kind of lay those down and come down from that, the high energy, keeping
[00:00:59] the audience involved and engaged in between things and standing on trying to keep up
[00:01:05] with Steven and script changes and things and then just coming back into my own pace
[00:01:16] takes me a little while afterwards.
[00:01:21] Once the show actually gets started though, is there still a lot of changing up happening?
[00:01:27] You know, yes.
[00:01:31] Particularly in my world, part of my job is sort of managing the energy in the room
[00:01:45] from top to bottom of the taping and there's a lot of times where interviews change course
[00:01:53] or take a different tone for example.
[00:01:56] Before the audience is just a little bit on the less energetic side and we need to
[00:02:03] sort of ramp up a little bit to get it to show level, then I need to make some audibles.
[00:02:13] And I'll change this, I'll modify the set list on the fly and I have a talkback
[00:02:17] microphone.
[00:02:19] I'll talkback switch from my vocal mic that I use to communicate with the band and I'll
[00:02:29] wipe one on in-ears and that's kind of how we flow accordingly.
[00:02:35] To just manage what, you know, that part of the job is managing the energy of the
[00:02:42] show.
[00:02:43] I always just assume that there was just like straight communication happening with
[00:02:46] the bands, but I guess that's a pretty large amount of space to cover.
[00:02:50] Yeah, yeah.
[00:02:51] I mean, it's like, I mean, really like, you know, these kinds of things is more
[00:02:58] like I'm reading what's happening over there and like interpreting like if what
[00:03:06] we have on the set list still works for what's happening over there.
[00:03:13] And a lot of times it does and that's great.
[00:03:18] And if it doesn't, then like I'm relating to the band, I'm making those
[00:03:24] judgment calls.
[00:03:26] Like, okay, we were going to end, I think this happened tonight actually,
[00:03:30] we were going to end with, we were going to go out of an interview on a
[00:03:35] certain section of a song that was a little up, but the interview took a
[00:03:39] serious tone.
[00:03:41] So I made an audible call to say, hey, let's actually do this song that
[00:03:47] matches that energy a little bit more.
[00:03:48] So, you know, because you don't want it to be so jarring.
[00:03:50] Like sometimes you want to like contrast and lighten up.
[00:03:54] And sometimes like if you just got into a really serious topic with,
[00:03:58] you know, Elizabeth Warren, then you want to just, you want to embrace
[00:04:02] that. And so, you know, ride the balance.
[00:04:05] So I feel like when you have politicians on, you definitely need like
[00:04:10] something in the bag.
[00:04:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:04:12] It's a little organic humanity balance out the big world issues they
[00:04:19] get into.
[00:04:20] Also kind of slightly surprising in that, you know, I don't know a
[00:04:25] ton about that world, but I know there's a lot of, you know,
[00:04:28] there are conversations that happen ahead of time as far as like on
[00:04:31] Steven's end and your, as far as like what the beats are going to be
[00:04:36] and what they're going to talk about.
[00:04:38] But it sounds like they're even like within that there's a still,
[00:04:41] there's still a fair, there's some wiggle room in terms of what they
[00:04:44] talk about and what kind of the vibe is.
[00:04:47] Oh, 100%.
[00:04:48] 100%.
[00:04:49] I mean, the bottom line is always just like for me, like, it's
[00:04:53] a, it's part of my job.
[00:04:55] One of the biggest parts of my job is to sort of man the, the
[00:05:03] sonic footprint, the sonic identity rather of our show.
[00:05:08] So whatever direction Steven and the writers and producers go in, like
[00:05:16] what I bring is ideally is like the right instinct combination of
[00:05:22] instinct and expertise to be able to encompass it and, and make
[00:05:28] it feel like one thing.
[00:05:30] You know what I mean?
[00:05:32] When you took over the role, was there a balance that had to be
[00:05:36] struck as far as, you know, obviously like this was an ongoing show and
[00:05:42] you know, it is Steven's show as far as sort of like keeping that identity,
[00:05:46] but also putting your own footprint on things.
[00:05:49] Um, I mean, I mean really like, uh, where I, I mean, I say this
[00:05:57] all the time, but I really, I have the best boss in the world.
[00:06:02] I wouldn't want to do a job like this for anyone else.
[00:06:06] Um, and I realize I'm biased when I say that, but you know, for
[00:06:10] the last nine years, I've worked alongside this incredible human and,
[00:06:15] uh, I had that, that feeling only gets deeper and stronger.
[00:06:21] Uh, you know, you see more and more of a human in the way they
[00:06:25] operate in a professional setting as a human being, and it's just,
[00:06:30] yeah, he, he is who he is.
[00:06:34] And, and, uh, I, I really resonate with his commitment to excellence.
[00:06:41] Uh, uh, and the professionalism with which he carries himself from
[00:06:47] the respect of which he treats everyone that he works with.
[00:06:50] So that's important just because when I, when I'm to answer your question,
[00:06:56] when, when I, when he asked me to do this for a time, uh, he invited me
[00:07:04] to, uh, to be myself and do it the way that I would do it.
[00:07:12] Um, uh, and I found that to be really, first of all, great and fortunate.
[00:07:20] I was really humbled and grateful for it, but also very freeing,
[00:07:25] uh, to this point of like how to sort of step into this role and do it honestly.
[00:07:32] But also, like you said, accuracy and, uh, you know, playing like very,
[00:07:38] very much a, you know, the job description is to be like a, a, a
[00:07:45] sort of solid understudy, not understudy, under support to very,
[00:07:51] very defined in number one, you know what I mean?
[00:07:54] Uh, but I feel like if I'm being like when I'm, when I'm being the
[00:07:59] most honest to myself, I have, you know, a lot of, most of my career,
[00:08:07] I've, I've been doing that in various settings with various other,
[00:08:13] uh, artists and musicians, you know.
[00:08:18] Uh, so it, um, I find that I, I enjoy supporting people who I believe in.
[00:08:28] Uh, as a producer, I enjoy identifying psychologically what makes this person
[00:08:36] special and, and, and then offering my perspective to help make that shine.
[00:08:44] And in a lot of ways, this is very similar.
[00:08:48] When you said doing it honestly, what does it mean to do what you do honestly?
[00:08:53] I think it means, uh, to, uh, to me, it means, uh, I think there, there's a,
[00:09:01] like there is like, I think of like the late night TV variety comedy show
[00:09:09] as like, kind of like one, you know, it's, it's kind of defined in and of itself.
[00:09:18] Like because of the timeframe, like things like subtleties don't necessarily
[00:09:23] translate, it's kind of like, I think of it as like a, there's a,
[00:09:27] there's a, there's a high threshold for like, you know what I mean?
[00:09:32] Uh, energetically as to like what translates in this medium.
[00:09:38] Uh, and in my brain as it lived, that's not necessarily the most organic, uh,
[00:09:47] uh, sort of place, uh, for a musician, uh, such as, or, or, you know,
[00:09:52] my musical identity, uh, which like, you know, I mean, my last record is
[00:09:57] just, is literally, you know, it's like acoustic guitars and brushes.
[00:10:05] You didn't have to answer to anybody on that.
[00:10:07] Yeah.
[00:10:07] Yeah.
[00:10:08] You know what I mean?
[00:10:09] It's very, it doesn't necessarily work for TV, it's not ready for TV.
[00:10:14] You know what I mean?
[00:10:15] When I, so finding, when I say honest to myself, it's sort of like me,
[00:10:22] or I'm constantly asking the question of like where the middle ground is,
[00:10:27] where the intersection of that is, and it's a moving target.
[00:10:33] Um, but, um, I'm, I continue to find it, you know, this has been
[00:10:39] just like, I started filling in, in March of 2022, uh, and then took over
[00:10:48] in the summer, so we're, we're coming up on, uh, almost two years of like,
[00:10:55] kind of learning and I'm still in the learning space, but ideally that
[00:11:00] w like when I really feel like it's because fully, fully show time at
[00:11:08] the Apollo, like loud, all loud, all 10, like.
[00:11:13] James Brown.
[00:11:14] Yeah.
[00:11:14] J you know what I mean?
[00:11:15] That's, that's not necessarily like, uh, I, that's not sustainably honest to me.
[00:11:21] Um, uh, I need some contrast, but in a way that still translates to our
[00:11:30] audience and the, in the medium, you know, uh, and then it gets the job done.
[00:11:35] So I'm finding ways and flows, uh, to, to achieve that.
[00:11:42] Um, as, as, as we go on, when you say you're still learning, I assume there's,
[00:11:48] you know, there's obviously a little bit of you kind of being humble there,
[00:11:52] but is it, is it a case of.
[00:11:55] As long as you're doing this, you're going to be learning or do you feel
[00:11:58] like there's going to be a point where you're like, all right, I, I got this.
[00:12:03] I think a little bit of both.
[00:12:04] I mean, if I'm guessing, uh, I mean, where I'm speaking now, you know,
[00:12:09] I, I enjoy learning and that's one of the things I love about this job is
[00:12:15] that I feel like there will always be something to be learned because every
[00:12:19] combination of moments that leads to every show is unique.
[00:12:24] Um, uh, that being said, I also feel like, um, I'm starting to find
[00:12:33] more and more of a flow, uh, as to what that, what the range looks like
[00:12:37] and feels like and what works and what doesn't always work as consistently.
[00:12:45] And, um, so I also think, I think I'll continue to find a place
[00:12:50] where it's maybe not like fully, I got it, but like, I know what to do
[00:12:56] to get to where it needs to get.
[00:12:58] I think that that is why I don't think that that is a good
[00:13:02] quality in artists in general, but certainly musicians of.
[00:13:07] Once you get to the point where you feel like you know everything,
[00:13:10] then you get complacent and it gets boring.
[00:13:12] Yeah.
[00:13:12] Yeah.
[00:13:13] Maybe maybe never get there.
[00:13:15] What, one of the things I appreciate about Steven, I have been to
[00:13:20] concerts and I have seen him there.
[00:13:21] So he's obviously like a music lover and he, he likes some of
[00:13:25] the same like weird shit that I do, which I definitely appreciate.
[00:13:28] Yeah.
[00:13:29] In terms, in terms of like the bands that are coming through is, do you,
[00:13:34] do you end up learning directly through those musicians as well?
[00:13:37] Oh yeah.
[00:13:38] Well, you know, not so much, you know, we actually don't have
[00:13:42] as like, it's not, we don't have guest bands every night.
[00:13:47] I mean, some weeks we'll have more and some weeks we'll have, uh,
[00:13:53] like one, uh, you know, all week.
[00:13:57] But, uh, um, and then oftentimes, uh, because of our taping structure,
[00:14:05] I'm just, I miss a lot of our performance, the lot of the
[00:14:10] performances and unless there's someone like, I really want to see,
[00:14:15] you know, in which case I'll have to see it on the, you know, watch
[00:14:19] it on the, on the TV and the dressing room or whatever.
[00:14:23] Um, uh, but yeah, not, not so much.
[00:14:29] I don't, I don't, I don't get there.
[00:14:31] I don't, I mean, in certain instances for sure.
[00:14:35] Uh, if I, if I, like I said, if I had someone that I really want to see,
[00:14:39] or if I have some friends on there playing, I just, um, uh, we had
[00:14:44] Lucius on the show like a while back and I just, you know, we all,
[00:14:49] they're all long time friends.
[00:14:50] And so we actually, actually played with them for their performance on our,
[00:14:57] on our show, but yeah, every now and then those moments happen.
[00:15:02] And it's really nice.
[00:15:03] You mentioned as a producer, this idea of, I think you said, I, I
[00:15:09] identifying something psychologically with the artists that you're working
[00:15:12] with, and I'm, I'm really curious what you mean by that.
[00:15:16] Oh, I think when we were talking about, uh, just, uh, I was relating it to,
[00:15:22] um, uh, being in a support role, much like as a band leader of a late night,
[00:15:31] uh, talk show, like support supporting the host.
[00:15:35] Uh, it feels like a similar muscle as supporting an artist.
[00:15:40] Um, psychological element being, uh, just connecting, uh, with a human
[00:15:48] being in their creative perspective and their creative identity and, um, and
[00:15:54] have being able to have a conversation, see eye to eye, uh, find the
[00:16:00] thing or things, the combination of things that is unique to them and
[00:16:06] special, uh, and encourage it, you know, showcase it.
[00:16:15] Like with the, I guess a meta analogy would be like in the same way of like,
[00:16:19] uh, uh, uh, like a, like a blues singer, uh, may have a tendency to fall off
[00:16:29] of notes in a certain way.
[00:16:31] Uh, and, and, and, and that is a very distinct thing that like doesn't
[00:16:36] work for other people being off pitch, but the way they do it works for them.
[00:16:42] Like I, as a producer, like I want, I want that sauce and that that's
[00:16:48] like everything else I've wants to be.
[00:16:50] I want to, I want to arrange the music and the soundscape in a way
[00:16:54] that lets that shine as the special thing that is, uh, in compare it
[00:17:00] by comparison, like a host like Steven is, it's like one of his superpowers.
[00:17:09] As we all know is, is, is, is like sort of his quick wit, uh, his brain
[00:17:14] moves at lightning speed and his recall is just insane.
[00:17:19] Like I've never seen.
[00:17:20] So I want to stay out of the way of that, you know, some things
[00:17:25] I have a genuine reaction.
[00:17:27] Like I might, uh, withhold by laughter because I know he's got something
[00:17:33] else coming that's on or off script.
[00:17:37] You know what I mean?
[00:17:38] But like, I want that part of him to be able to shine and some, and, and
[00:17:42] again, that's another place, space that I'm still learning.
[00:17:45] Uh, but in those kinds of ways, like I, uh, and I, uh, I, that's
[00:17:53] how I approach, approach the job and what I, one of the things I enjoy most about it.
[00:17:59] You were talking about blues scales in that, in that instance, you know,
[00:18:02] and obviously like traditionally there's kind of, you know, like a set,
[00:18:06] there's, there's, there's a traditional way that scales go, but using
[00:18:11] the word psychologist is really interesting to me because it sounds
[00:18:13] like you're, you're speaking of something really like human and deep
[00:18:19] and personal about that person that goes beyond just what the music
[00:18:23] they produce sounds like.
[00:18:24] Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:25] I believe that wholeheartedly.
[00:18:27] I believe that the reason they say the music never lies is, is, is
[00:18:31] cause it's a, it's, it's a, it's this mystical sort of, uh, expose.
[00:18:40] If you will.
[00:18:41] Uh, it's like, uh, putting mist on a, on a leaf.
[00:18:46] Uh, it's, it's not going to, you're not the music's not going to like change
[00:18:52] the identity of what it's portraying.
[00:18:54] Like, you know what I mean?
[00:18:55] It's so, so, so like, I, I, I really believe that the music never lies
[00:19:04] in like, if it's honest, then, then it'll, that will come through.
[00:19:12] Is there a degree in a case like that when you're specifically, when
[00:19:16] you're going to produce someone who you don't know personally, where
[00:19:19] you have to sort of sit down and get to know them as a person
[00:19:22] to really understand how they take?
[00:19:24] For sure.
[00:19:24] For sure.
[00:19:25] A hundred percent.
[00:19:26] I mean, I'd say like most recently, as I haven't been doing a whole
[00:19:30] lot of producing for other folks in the last couple of years since
[00:19:33] just trying to focus on this job.
[00:19:36] But most recently it's very similar to like when we do guest sit
[00:19:40] and we have people join the band, you know, like when we had Joe
[00:19:45] Walsh come in for a week.
[00:19:49] See that now that is a personality right there.
[00:19:51] Yeah.
[00:19:52] Yeah.
[00:19:53] And it's like, it's not a, it's not a straight, it's not
[00:19:56] like a nine to five office personality.
[00:20:04] He's quite the exquisite genius that bad man.
[00:20:10] But to your question, there is like an initial period of like, I need
[00:20:17] to have a conversation with this person and find out where the,
[00:20:22] where the connect is.
[00:20:23] You know what I mean?
[00:20:25] Because like the Late Show band, we're really like a band of
[00:20:32] artists who all believe in each other.
[00:20:33] And so like, there's a lot, there's an identity collectively that
[00:20:38] I also have to stay true to.
[00:20:43] I, or at least I, in my approach, I need, I stay true to that
[00:20:46] to have the best outcome.
[00:20:49] Uh, uh, I want to do, I want to find the through line of what's
[00:20:54] honest to like our collective, uh, identity, what's honest to the,
[00:21:00] the identity of the artist.
[00:21:04] Uh, and within that, when I show up as band leading or playing or singing,
[00:21:13] uh, I, I, I, where I can give, uh, honestly, and it'd be relevant as well.
[00:21:20] One of, if not the core element to what you do specifically is trying
[00:21:26] to find the common thread between seemingly disparate types of music.
[00:21:31] You know, talking about Joe Walsh, he's a rock guy, obviously, maybe kind
[00:21:34] of a folk guy worked with the Eagles, but then, you know, I'm looking
[00:21:37] at this list of collaborators that you have and I'm seeing like tribe on
[00:21:41] there, Taleb Kweli, I know you work with Snarky Puppy who we had
[00:21:45] on the show a while ago and it strikes me that like such an essential
[00:21:49] part, if not the essential part to what you do is finding this common
[00:21:54] thread between seemingly disparate kinds of music.
[00:21:57] Yeah, I enjoy that.
[00:21:59] I think I spent a lot of time in my, um, when I, when I, when I was
[00:22:05] 18 and I got to Berkeley school of music in Boston, it was, it
[00:22:12] was a big, uh, it was a hugely important time for me felt like an
[00:22:19] awakening of sorts to all the genres that I didn't grow up with.
[00:22:25] Uh, and I just, I found so much that resonates with me across
[00:22:32] like all the genres that I've heard this far.
[00:22:36] And, uh, and so I spent a lot of time, like getting into like
[00:22:44] what makes this, this sort of like one feel like it does.
[00:22:51] Like what makes this one, like this, this same tempo with the same
[00:22:58] instrumentation, uh, feel like a country Western, uh, record as
[00:23:04] opposed to like, uh, uh, funk record, you know, uh, and there's,
[00:23:12] there's a lot of nuance in there that, uh, that really excites me.
[00:23:17] And I like both and all of them, uh, the same, but like it, I think
[00:23:23] from that place when you're, when your mind is like looking for
[00:23:28] connection and common threads in things that like really interest
[00:23:32] you, and these are things that really interests me.
[00:23:35] Like, like, uh, I mentioned instrumentation, uh, feel time
[00:23:40] feels, uh, layering, uh, um, uh, voicings harmonically, like, uh,
[00:23:54] triads versus, uh, uh, extensions.
[00:23:57] And, and, uh, um, you know, these are kinds of things that can
[00:24:03] make the same song live in a myriad of different worlds and styles.
[00:24:09] Um, and I'm, I'm someone who's really, uh, I get, I get into all that.
[00:24:15] I've never been much of a cook myself, but I started doing it
[00:24:18] lately because I was just eating too much.
[00:24:20] I was eating too much takeout.
[00:24:21] You know, I'm in, I'm in Queens myself, so it's like really easy
[00:24:24] to just get Uber Eats every night.
[00:24:25] And I never, it was one of those things where I like, because I
[00:24:28] never really cooked, I never understood why people got so excited about it.
[00:24:32] And hearing you describe music, it strikes me that I think a big part
[00:24:36] of the reason why people get excited about cooking is because in a lot
[00:24:39] of cases you're taking the same exact ingredients and are making somehow
[00:24:45] making entirely different things.
[00:24:46] And, you know, when you really break down, hip hop's a little bit
[00:24:50] different, but it's still based on the same instrumentation, like
[00:24:53] at its heart, right?
[00:24:54] Yeah.
[00:24:54] Into sampling using, you know, it's all at, you know, all this
[00:24:58] blues based stuff, it's all guitar drums, bass at its root.
[00:25:02] And it's wild.
[00:25:03] The different combinations you can come up.
[00:25:04] Yeah.
[00:25:06] Yeah.
[00:25:07] Yeah.
[00:25:07] And it's wild, like the way how, like if you, like you've taken those
[00:25:12] three elements even drums, guitar, bass, and like the way you play them
[00:25:16] and the roles that you play them can connect to so many different traditions.
[00:25:23] And also how I, one thing that I don't hear a lot of people talk about is
[00:25:28] how much mix plays into that.
[00:25:31] Like, you know, I think some DJs are really plugged into it.
[00:25:37] Like what happens when you take like a, especially now with the
[00:25:42] Serato and some of the AI where you can split up stems and take
[00:25:48] drums that were recorded like off in the corner of a room, like
[00:25:52] on a single microphone and isolate them, you know, to a certain degree
[00:25:58] and turn them up and how drastically that changes the identity and the
[00:26:03] style and the feeling of the music.
[00:26:06] On the record that you put out last year, I alluded to this a little
[00:26:08] bit before, but it sounds like you play like basically if not every
[00:26:11] instrument on it, is this, is, is this a world that you're really
[00:26:15] like starting to dig into as you're doing more of this recording on your own?
[00:26:19] Um, you know, I've kind of always been in this world.
[00:26:23] My first record I also played everything on.
[00:26:26] Uh, I, there, there is a world of my identity where like, I kind of hear
[00:26:34] things specifically to their context.
[00:26:41] Uh, like I play, I play like the, the, uh, like the acoustic
[00:26:48] guitar parts in a certain way.
[00:26:51] Not because they live that way on their own as well, but because
[00:26:55] because of the way that the time field will sit in with wherever I have.
[00:26:59] You know how things are going to plug in before you sit down.
[00:27:02] Yes.
[00:27:03] And that's very different.
[00:27:04] Yeah, exactly.
[00:27:05] A hundred percent.
[00:27:06] Yes.
[00:27:07] Yes.
[00:27:07] Um, and, and so like, I realized like, you know, I, I essentially
[00:27:13] turned that part of my brain off when I'm coming in with, with
[00:27:18] other bands or producing records for other folks because
[00:27:21] you don't want to micromanage on something else.
[00:27:23] You don't want to micromanage.
[00:27:24] Do you really, you really don't?
[00:27:26] I really, really, really don't.
[00:27:27] I'm sure if you, Mike, Mike Leigh and I have talked about this as well.
[00:27:32] Like, you know, like because you can, you run the risk of, of,
[00:27:41] of killing the magic before it's born.
[00:27:45] Uh, and, and that's one with the real joys of getting to
[00:27:50] work with a band like this.
[00:27:51] Uh, there's at least a couple of moments every night where somebody
[00:27:57] surprises me and, and takes, takes something in another direction
[00:28:03] that like, that I never would have heard, never could have heard,
[00:28:06] you know, because that's where they're coming from.
[00:28:08] And if your ears are open to it, you can enjoy it, you know?
[00:28:11] Uh, so I really leave, leave that more at the, at the door with
[00:28:18] the exception of, I try to, I kind of believe in this philosophy
[00:28:22] as a band leader of like, uh, like presenting, like here's a direction
[00:28:30] and I'll make demos with like, you know, here's the drum part I'm hearing.
[00:28:35] Here's the percussion part I'm hearing.
[00:28:37] Here's the bass part that I'm hearing.
[00:28:38] Keys, like this kind of idea and bring that to the band.
[00:28:43] But with full, like this is just like, if nothing else, if everyone's low
[00:28:49] energy today and like that's a, like no one has any ideas or inspiration,
[00:28:55] then this is an idea, my idea of something that will work and translate.
[00:28:59] And if anyone has anything to bring in it, it's always welcome.
[00:29:05] And those are always the moments where it takes off and becomes
[00:29:08] something bigger than all of us.
[00:29:10] In the case of, uh, Michael and snarky puppy, is there a degree to which
[00:29:15] you're kind of playing outside of your comfort zone?
[00:29:17] Well, I wouldn't say, I mean, for me again, like there's, there's
[00:29:23] like, uh, I mean that I've, I feel like I've lived a couple of
[00:29:27] lifetimes in this short time.
[00:29:29] I've been here already, but in that part of my life, like when
[00:29:33] I was touring with the pups, that was a part of my identity that, that
[00:29:41] it didn't feel like outside of my identity.
[00:29:44] Uh, it felt like, uh, you know, I was pushed to operate in, in,
[00:29:52] like in a high level of things, but like odd meters and odd, uh, time
[00:30:00] signatures and, and like irregular rhythmic cadences and, and
[00:30:06] atypical harmonic structures.
[00:30:08] And, uh, these things like that my inner nerd is, is always kind
[00:30:15] of twirling in and out of anyways.
[00:30:17] It's, it's, it's a great question actually, because yeah, I mean,
[00:30:23] in bands like that, like it's just, it's really fun and
[00:30:27] fulfilling to like kind of nerd out.
[00:30:29] And it's really amazing that they have so purposely pushed the envelope
[00:30:33] in a way that where, like they found the larger global audience for some
[00:30:40] of these quirks that, you know, uh, don't necessarily aren't necessarily
[00:30:48] represented in a top 40 mainstream, uh, uh, music, but it doesn't feel
[00:30:58] outside of me.
[00:30:59] It feels like it's like, it feels more like, uh, you know, like when
[00:31:05] you get together with your buddies and, and talk about like the nerdy
[00:31:10] stuff that like, that, that outside of that, like people don't really
[00:31:18] care about, but like we do.
[00:31:20] And it's a lot of the reason that like, yeah, it's, it's fun in that way.
[00:31:26] You develop a, you develop a special language.
[00:31:29] Yeah.
[00:31:30] Yeah.
[00:31:31] You really, you really do.
[00:31:32] And it's particularly fun now kind of coming back to it.
[00:31:35] We did this mirrors record a couple of years ago, um, with, uh,
[00:31:40] or there's a project called mirrors.
[00:31:42] It was myself, Michael Lee, Gisela Joao, Justin Stanton, also
[00:31:47] Snarky, uh, and, uh, Becca Stevens.
[00:31:52] And, um, in that particular project, it was a really cool intersection
[00:31:59] of that sort of nerdism and where I've ended up kind of more present
[00:32:05] day in my industry, which is like a little closer to my country
[00:32:12] Carolina roots, I think, uh, um, a lot of blues, a lot of funk,
[00:32:19] a lot of pop, um, a lot of soulful singer songwriter.
[00:32:23] And, you know, it's, I just think it's cool.
[00:32:30] It's fun to like, like, uh, uh, to, to like, when you find it's,
[00:32:37] it's kind of like when you, when you, as you start to find your
[00:32:40] own voice, like, but you're still that person that you are.
[00:32:45] Being honest, coming back into that space means something different
[00:32:49] than it did 10, 15 years ago.
[00:32:51] It's funny.
[00:32:52] You know, we talked a little bit about the contrast between playing
[00:32:54] on national television and playing with snarky puppy, but I'm also
[00:32:57] curious about the contrast between snarky puppy or just playing
[00:33:01] with like a jazz band and doing everything, doing this record or
[00:33:05] your last couple of records when you were doing everything on your own.
[00:33:09] So I'm curious about that.
[00:33:10] And I think that's a really cool thing to do.
[00:33:13] Yeah.
[00:33:14] I mean, it is an entirely different process, but I've been doing it my whole life.
[00:33:19] Uh, I think, uh, like when I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm
[00:33:26] just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just
[00:33:30] doing everything on my own, I'm just doing everything on my own.
[00:33:34] I mean, in a genre, like especially, I know it's not a jazz record,
[00:33:40] but you do, you do sort of play around in that, uh, that so values
[00:33:47] like when I'm like, I get to, I get, you know, yeah.
[00:33:51] When I, when I'm, when I was, I mean, from my earliest memories of having
[00:33:55] like a tape recorder, once I figured out how to turn it upside down and,
[00:34:02] uh, you know, record over like the tape and stuff, uh, I, it made sense
[00:34:08] to me, like the way that I, this kind of like zooming in and out.
[00:34:13] You go of like, you know, zooming in, like being present, like as the
[00:34:18] performer, but also then zooming out just as you go, like of like how
[00:34:23] you truly treated the arc and like, all right, I went up kind of here.
[00:34:28] I went down here and like, so I know like when I go to the next layer,
[00:34:32] I want to either, that was cool.
[00:34:35] And I want to like double that up or I want to like give some
[00:34:38] contrast and bounce it out and like, I'll go up here so that when
[00:34:42] I went to that down there, it'll feel, it'll fill out and give me
[00:34:47] the sense of balance that I ultimately looking for.
[00:34:52] And in those ways, I'd say that's sort of the parallel of like
[00:34:55] playing with other people where it's like, yeah, you're literally
[00:34:58] playing with your other self, um, I guess, but, but the awareness
[00:35:05] that I keep of the layers that are happening as I go is not dissimilar
[00:35:11] to the awareness that I keep of my fellow bandmates when I'm, when
[00:35:16] we're making music together in real time.
[00:35:18] That process strikes me as a good one to be doing like during
[00:35:21] the pandemic, obviously, when you know, things were really bad
[00:35:24] and you couldn't be with other people, but
[00:35:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:35:29] Yeah.
[00:35:30] Last week, we get
[00:35:30] why has that continued to be an important process for you?
[00:35:36] Uh, which part?
[00:35:37] Just doing it kind of all on your own like that.
[00:35:39] Um, I think, uh, I think I just, there's a, I mean, it really, I
[00:35:47] mean, this is part of the reason that I do like the weekly series
[00:35:52] on my Instagram, the Cato Covers every Monday is because it kind
[00:35:57] of like allows me a space to exercise those demons, if you
[00:36:03] will, uh, that there's like, there is a part of my brain that's
[00:36:07] always thinking and hearing things in relative to like a bigger
[00:36:15] picture and soundscape.
[00:36:16] Is it hard for you to listen to music ever for that reason?
[00:36:21] No, it's, it's actually, it makes it that much more, uh, interesting
[00:36:26] to me because first of all, like if I'm hearing it, that means
[00:36:31] like someone has like committed to it and that sparks my
[00:36:35] curiosity.
[00:36:37] What, what, what made you commit to this?
[00:36:41] You know what I mean?
[00:36:42] Sounded so loaded when he said it like that.
[00:36:47] Of all the things to commit to, this is what you committed to.
[00:36:51] Well, I mean, but that's just a starting point, like whatever it
[00:36:53] is, you know what I mean?
[00:36:54] Like if I'm, if someone sends me something to listen to like on
[00:36:57] Spotify, uh, I, just before I hit play, that's like my mindset is
[00:37:04] that someone, someone committed to this enough to mix it, master
[00:37:10] it, release it.
[00:37:12] Uh, so I want to, I'm coming in one to get inside of it and
[00:37:17] understand why.
[00:37:18] And sometimes it's like straight down the middle and other times
[00:37:22] there's some really interesting choices that people make that,
[00:37:27] that really, uh, even further peak my curiosity.
[00:37:30] So yeah, I think because my brain and I like, and I'm sort of
[00:37:36] wired to listen to music in that way.
[00:37:40] It, uh, it's not hard for me to listen at all.
[00:37:43] It actually is exciting and fun to, to listen to music, especially
[00:37:49] when people make like some more, uh, adventurous decisions.
[00:37:55] Yeah.
[00:37:56] I'm always curious.
[00:37:56] I was, I think about this a lot in college.
[00:37:58] I had a roommate who was a film major and you know, like it's that whole
[00:38:03] like first year film student thing where it just for the space of about six
[00:38:11] months to a year became impossible to watch movies with him.
[00:38:14] It's just that thing of it.
[00:38:15] Like when somebody's studying something and it becomes a possible
[00:38:18] to watch a movie with them.
[00:38:22] Yeah.
[00:38:22] I'm always curious, like especially, you know, you, you haven't gone to
[00:38:25] Berkeley, which is, you know, one of the most prestigious music schools in
[00:38:31] the world, um, whether learning those kinds of fundamentals, um, if, if
[00:38:38] that can have an impact on your enjoyment of just being music, uh,
[00:38:44] just being a sort of a passive listener to music.
[00:38:48] Yeah.
[00:38:49] You know, I think for a while it had an impact on my ability to
[00:38:56] listen as a passive listener.
[00:38:58] Uh, probably not unlike your college roommate, uh, when I was really in
[00:39:04] it, uh, and I was learning about all these differences and things and
[00:39:10] people, you know, you're 18, 19 and, and like, you know, people have
[00:39:17] their different ideas of what's right and what's wrong and what the groove
[00:39:21] is supposed to feel like, and like where the time is and the metronome
[00:39:26] is King versus like, you know what I mean?
[00:39:29] Like when songs would speed up, that was like, that was an early pet peeve
[00:39:33] of mine, uh, uh, just like, oh, it's wrong.
[00:39:38] You know what I mean?
[00:39:38] Like the song ended like 10 clicks faster than it started.
[00:39:42] And, uh, you know, but I'd say, I don't know over time as I got older, um,
[00:39:52] and got some distance from the, from the classroom side of it.
[00:40:00] I just, I don't know.
[00:40:03] I, I started to expand and find more of the, the pockets of beauty that
[00:40:13] are possible outside of, uh, our little tiny boxes of pitch and time and
[00:40:23] perfect pitch and perfect time.
[00:40:25] And, uh, it turns out I don't really, that step moves me.
[00:40:30] Things that move me are, are riddled with change and movement and things
[00:40:36] that mirror the human experience more than, uh, uh, I was right or
[00:40:44] thought that something was wrong.
[00:40:45] You know?
[00:40:46] So I would assume going into that you had some ambition to do something specific.
[00:40:50] Um, what is it that made you leave?
[00:40:55] My only ambition coming was to learn.
[00:40:59] I grew up in Albemarle, North Carolina, and this was, it's a very small town
[00:41:04] full of beautiful people and, but, but not, uh, full of professional musicians.
[00:41:09] I didn't have any idea of, of a profession that was possible outside of teaching.
[00:41:17] Uh, uh, and, uh, I just knew when I, when I found out about Berkeley
[00:41:24] through my high school band director, um, that was the first that I
[00:41:30] found that, uh, I discovered that was the first, that was the first I
[00:41:35] discovered that it was possible to go to school, uh, for, you know,
[00:41:44] instruments like drums or bass or guitar even, but I still didn't know
[00:41:48] that it was a profession that people make a living doing this until I got
[00:41:53] to Boston.
[00:41:54] Uh, and, uh, I went to like, you know, I got hired doing studio work.
[00:42:03] Um, and got hired playing club gigs, uh, and wedding gigs.
[00:42:09] And, uh, um, and, and I was just like, what?
[00:42:15] I can, I can make a living and support my, my young daughter just playing.
[00:42:21] Uh, that's great.
[00:42:23] Uh, my only objective was to learn because I'm, I was completely self
[00:42:28] taught on, on all of my instruments.
[00:42:31] And, uh, um, uh, and, uh, I felt, you know, by the time I was 17, 18,
[00:42:42] um, I don't know if I had a very distinct, welling up feeling of having
[00:42:49] reached a ceiling and, but wanting like knowing that there's another level,
[00:42:56] but having no idea or concept of what it is.
[00:42:58] So I really just wanted to learn.
[00:43:00] And so in leaving, leaving Berkeley, my objective stayed the same.
[00:43:07] It was like, well, as long as I keep learning, uh, then, then, you know,
[00:43:14] that's where my heart is at right now.
[00:43:17] And fortunately I can learn on the job while getting paid to do it.
[00:43:23] And, you know, my, my, my oldest daughter was born, uh, when I was 19.
[00:43:29] Uh, so that was a huge part of that as well.
[00:43:32] It was like, well, I can, as long as I can, as long as I can,
[00:43:39] continue learning, uh, and, and, and make money in the process, then,
[00:43:45] then this works and we'll see where it goes.
[00:43:47] I mean, yeah, that's obviously a real important element.
[00:43:50] And I didn't realize that you had her when you were so young.
[00:43:54] Um, I can't, I can't fathom that just, just, you know, that, that
[00:44:01] huge of a thing of having like another person depending on you at that point.
[00:44:07] I mean, you know, 19 is that my teens when you're supposed to be in college,
[00:44:11] just, you know, messing around.
[00:44:12] Right?
[00:44:13] I mean, that really, that changes the math in such a just unconceivable way.
[00:44:19] Yeah.
[00:44:20] Yeah.
[00:44:20] It really does.
[00:44:21] I mean, I, I mean, to be fair, I didn't fully fathom it myself.
[00:44:26] I, I, I felt the gravitas, uh, uh, but you know, I was 19 and I, I
[00:44:33] just knew like, well, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta figure out bills, uh, and fatherhood.
[00:44:44] I gotta figure out every adult thing all at once, all right now.
[00:44:48] Yeah.
[00:44:48] Yeah.
[00:44:49] Yeah.
[00:44:49] Yeah.
[00:44:49] Yeah.
[00:44:50] So I sort of hacked my way through it the best that I, the best that I
[00:44:54] could.
[00:44:54] And I really lucked out, um, uh, had in her, uh, my, uh, my daughter's mother
[00:45:04] birthed an incredible human being that who I've has completely changed my life
[00:45:12] in ways that I could not have imagined and, uh, uh, learned so much
[00:45:20] about love and music through, uh, through learn how, learn how she needs to be
[00:45:25] loved and, uh, I fully, uh, wouldn't have it any other way.
[00:45:31] The upshot of having it happen when you're 19 is that you like one, you
[00:45:36] have the energy to, you know, to like, to, to go out and bust your ass,
[00:45:42] you know, like playing out there.
[00:45:44] Um, you know, that, that goes away when you get older and two, like,
[00:45:48] are more willing to take the risk because like there, there is no, uh, there
[00:45:54] is no guarantee going into music that you're going to make a dime doing it.
[00:45:58] You know?
[00:45:58] And, and, and if you had gotten like to the point in your life when you
[00:46:01] were more pragmatic, you might, you might not have pursued it that fully.
[00:46:06] Yeah.
[00:46:07] Yeah.
[00:46:07] Oh yeah.
[00:46:07] Absolutely.
[00:46:09] Absolutely.
[00:46:10] I mean, it's, it's, it's funny.
[00:46:13] Like people, some people ask, uh, these questions, like how does it feel to be,
[00:46:20] uh, living your dream, living the dream.
[00:46:23] And I always kind of chuckle because within the question, you
[00:46:29] assume that I had a dream, right?
[00:46:32] I, which I did not.
[00:46:35] You wanted to play music professionally and you achieved that pretty quickly.
[00:46:39] So in that sense, you've certainly, yeah, I guess it still happens later
[00:46:43] in my, in my imagination though.
[00:46:45] Like at 19, I was like, yeah, I want to give it a make a living,
[00:46:50] like, like pay bills and, uh, doing this.
[00:46:55] Uh, you weren't like watching Letterman and Paul Schaffer and being
[00:46:59] like that's, I want to be that guy.
[00:47:01] Absolutely not.
[00:47:04] Never in my, never nowhere in my imagination was that.
[00:47:08] And I w I really wasn't on a path to do that.
[00:47:13] I mean, I came into this because, uh, my, my dear brother, John
[00:47:19] Betis called me to produce, uh, on the theme song.
[00:47:25] Uh, cause I was coming back and forth to New York working as a producer
[00:47:30] on a couple of other projects.
[00:47:31] And, but we'd never worked together before, but I was sort of doing
[00:47:34] like the Sideman slash production thing.
[00:47:38] Uh, and, uh, and through that experience, he asked me to join the band
[00:47:45] and it required like a full tilt change of direction.
[00:47:51] Like in the, like what I was doing, you know, I was at the time I
[00:47:56] was touring with, uh, Bobby McFerrin, Snarky Puppy, John
[00:48:02] Schofield and Marcus Miller, you know?
[00:48:08] And, uh, and this was like, well, you'll be, you know, in
[00:48:15] New York 42 weeks a year.
[00:48:17] So like total change, you know,
[00:48:21] the ability that you definitely don't get on the road.
[00:48:23] Yeah.
[00:48:23] Yeah.
[00:48:23] I mean, well, actually, I mean, not even like from my, at
[00:48:26] this point, I was really lucky.
[00:48:28] Like I had worked my way to a place where a lot of those, those
[00:48:32] artists, like, you know, they had relationships with each other as
[00:48:36] well as with me.
[00:48:37] And, uh, a lot of times they would book their calendars around
[00:48:42] like, uh, the touring schedules around each other.
[00:48:47] And for days that I couldn't do, I had, uh, subs that were
[00:48:52] all always it worked with their schedule to be able to jump
[00:48:56] in wherever there was overlap.
[00:48:58] So I, I mean, I was really, I didn't, I didn't, the stability
[00:49:04] wasn't a, wasn't even a thing for me.
[00:49:07] I'm very grateful to be able to say like, um, my calendar was,
[00:49:13] was, was stayed, stayed booked, you know?
[00:49:16] I mean, being a multi instrumentalist probably helps that too.
[00:49:20] But there's also just the stability of like being in the same place,
[00:49:23] you know, of like having a house that you can set up as a, yeah.
[00:49:27] For sure.
[00:49:28] And that was a big reason that I ultimately decided to do it as
[00:49:32] well, uh, cause I was making more money on the road, truth be told,
[00:49:38] but the, like the being able to be in one place and work on one thing
[00:49:43] and having that afford me to be able to begin, uh, writing and
[00:49:49] recording my own music.
[00:49:51] That was, that was the real value point for me at that, at that moment.
[00:49:56] I'm always curious, like somebody who gets to do not gets to do somebody
[00:50:00] who does what you do for a living.
[00:50:02] Are there still surreal moments?
[00:50:05] Absolutely.
[00:50:07] Absolutely.
[00:50:08] I mean, the difference is not that to me at least the difference is
[00:50:14] it's not that there, there are no more surreal moments, but it is
[00:50:19] because of the volume of those surreal moments, like that you don't have
[00:50:25] really like the time after process them because like, you know, the
[00:50:31] bit you're already by the time you on your way home, you're already
[00:50:35] having a plan for the, like to facilitate the next surreal moments
[00:50:39] that are going to happen, uh, potentially the next day.
[00:50:43] And it's your job to like facilitate them and make sure that like
[00:50:47] everyone is, uh, equipped to, to be able to succeed in them and enjoy them.
[00:50:54] Uh, uh, so still a lot of surreal moments.
[00:51:00] Uh, I couldn't be luckier in that way.
[00:51:02] Uh, the lesson becomes learning how to really process and process them
[00:51:08] afterwards on your way to prepare for the next day, which is going to
[00:51:14] start right over again tomorrow.
[00:51:23] I was too scared to face my own fears and I could see them in her.
